I am proud of public sector workers!!

Wiseman Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:20:55 PM GMT Print-friendly version Facebook

Dear Comrades

I am proud of my comrades in Unison and Unite, who have stood together and stood up for a better wage.  They deserve better pay, as well as many other workers.  The fact is that the Government have got this wrong.  Increases of about 5-6% would not affect the economy, in fact it would give people more money to spend or save, so helping.  It is fuel, articial pricing and company mismangement causing inflation.  Keep fighting!  You have my backing!!

John Wiseman
Unite rep
PPC Westmorland and Lonsdale





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I am proud of public sector workers!! | 46 comments (46 topical)

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#1)

by jkitleft on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:02:03 AM GMT

I support the strikers. The basic rate of 3.8% is artificial when basic commodoties are soaring through the roof. It isn't wise economics to ensure that people won't be able to buy things from the shop. They do a great job, and local government workers, especially people like cleaners, caterers, classroom assistants, carers etc. aren't exactly rolling in money.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#2)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:01:44 AM GMT

3.8% is absolute nonsense.

As we know, the CPI doesn't include housing costs.

RPI (more accurate) is 4.6% and in reality it's higher for most of us: real price rises offset by price falls in luxury goods.

Best of luck to everyone on strike.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#6)

by stuartm on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:01:27 AM GMT

Ruth Lea has a piece on the Guardians web sitre repeatring the governments line that although the pay offer is a pay cut to grant it would be ionflationary because it would lead to pay increases in the private sector!

The last thing we need at the moment is to take advice from monetarists. The perfomance by Mc Fadden on Newsnight last night was pathetic.

On the very same day as Labour MP's voted to keep their expenses Labour ministers tell the lowest paid that their pay demands are inflationary!!!!!

That is precisely the attitude which alienates Labour voters.

Voters do not like the 'Them' and 'Us' mentality!

'Do as we say not what we do' seems to be Labour ministers mantra.

Unfortunately, Public Sector workers we may well conclude that if they are going to have to put up with hypocritical preaching from Government ministers thenm it would be better to have Tory ministers preaching than two faced Labour ministers 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#3)

by treborc on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:09:59 AM GMT

If you add in rent council tax and all the rest the rate stands at 8.5% and rising fast. Labour says the unemployment rate is 2.8 to 3% but thats for people who claim benefits if you add those that cannot claim benefits because lets say a partner is working, the rate now stands at 5.5% and is rising.


I totally back the strike and wish you all the best.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#4)

by Floating voter on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:27:59 AM GMT

Are you proud of the disruption you've caused?

That's what the public will see - incovenience to them and union officials slapping each other on the back and saying what a good job they've done in shutting nursery services, etc.

They're already doing it over on conservativehome, it suits the tories perfectly. If you're going to congratulate each other on causing public mayhem, at least have the brains to do it in private. 


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#5)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:44:24 AM GMT

Erm, the point of a strike is to cause disruption to the employer.

Any inconvenience to the public is completely, 100% the fault of the LG employers and the government.

Typical Tories blame the workers for sticking up for themselves. It's hardly news.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#7)

by Floating voter on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:14:34 PM GMT

"Any inconvenience to the public is completely, 100% the fault of the LG employers and the government."

Oh I see - it's a case of "Now look what you made me do..."

The public don't care why they are being inconvenienced, they just resent the hassle and they'll blame the unions not the government. Your struggle is not their struggle.

 

"Typical Tories blame the workers for sticking up for themselves. It's hardly news."

Maybe so, but it's great propaganda. Don't think it won't be use. 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#8)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:43:12 PM GMT

Oh I see - it's a case of "Now look what you made me do..."

The public don't care why they are being inconvenienced, they just resent the hassle and they'll blame the unions not the government. Your struggle is not their struggle.

Some will, some won't. My experience is not that everyone is blaming the workers, but public opinion is notoriously fickle and is only one factor in the fight with the government/councils.

Their struggle IS our struggle as everyone suffers if public sector workers are underpaid, leave their job, etc, not to mention the precedent set for private sector who will use this to keep their wages down.

Maybe so, but it's great propaganda. Don't think it won't be use. 

I'm sure it will, but if we shrunk from doing anything because of how the Tory media portray it then we'd never get off our arses.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#21)

by doctordunc on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:16:05 PM GMT

The disruption is caused by employers refusing to give reasonable pay increases.

Full stop.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#9)

by madasafish on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:51:22 PM GMT

I'm proud of them as well.
Doing their best to elect a Conservative Government.
Labour ones ends up screwing up the economy : hence inflation and sub inflation pay rises for everyone: not just public sector employees.
But some people in the real world lose their jobs: 15,0000 last month.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#10)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:05:04 PM GMT

Speaking of the real world, check out figures on civil service redundancies over the last few years.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#26)

by CitizenAndreas on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 06:30:54 PM GMT

Doing their best to elect a Conservative Government.
Labour ones ends up screwing up the economy

Do you say that to wind us up, or actually so stupid that you believe it?


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#11)

by Will Charlton on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:54:17 PM GMT

I was at the Southampton strike rally, really good turn out, everyone in really loud voice.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#12)

by jkitleft on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:24:55 PM GMT

Oh my God, this isn't the seventies, passing Tories. Unions are far more pragmatic now. 2.5% is a complete joke. This isn't a 'Summer of Discontent'. Stop the hyperbole. Anyway, I'm not going to take economic lessons from Ruth Lea.

I'm not happy that local services are shut down. But this is not a case of the unions controlling the government. Unions know in this time, that strikes do them no favours, and UNISON isn't like the militant RMT or CWU.

If you want lower pay Tories, fine. But condemn boardroom pay, which shoots up every year, often by at least 10x the rate of inflation.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#13)

by Floating voter on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:29:50 PM GMT

"If you want lower pay Tories, fine. But condemn boardroom pay, which shoots up every year, often by at least 10x the rate of inflation."

Well, I'm not a tory, but I'll happily condemn stupid increases in boardroom pay and in manager's pay too. Pay rises should be merited, not just handed out. 

 

"... this isn't the seventies ..."

No, but it is beginning to feel very similar. I remember what it was like.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#14)

by jkitleft on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:33:28 PM GMT

Oh please. The unions don't have a gun to the heads of the government anymore. I would personally like a form of industrial democracy, learning from German co-determination, where managers and workers can thrash out demands with equal say on boards. Compromise is then far easier. The government should have offered say, 3.5%, to compromise, maybe 4%.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#18)

by Floating voter on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:51:15 PM GMT

" Oh please. The unions don't have a gun to the heads of the government anymore."

Hahahaha! Very funny!

Tell me again where all the party funding is coming from. Tell me again who is underwriting the party's debts? Tell me again who bailed the party out at the end of June. 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#19)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:59:38 PM GMT

Tell us again what they have got in exchange for it.

I bloody wish we did still have a gun to the head of the government.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#23)

by Floating voter on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:32:02 PM GMT

"Tell us again what they have got in exchange for it."

Word is filtering down to those of us working in small businesses that a new requirement for government work are unions.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Businesses-told-good-staff-relations.4291242.jp 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2301746/Firms-must-promote-union-membership-to-w in-government-contracts.html 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aKOnRbMMc29Q&refer=uk 

 

I'm sure more will become apparent over the following months. 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#24)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:38:18 PM GMT

Problem?

It's a problem for us. A ridiculously tiny concession. Get all private companies out of government work.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#27)

by jkitleft on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 07:11:18 PM GMT

Floating voter (really?),
Tony Hannon did an excellent article on here recently about how the unions were 'controlling' Labour. They were asking for things like free school meals.

Contrast this with the situation in the '70's. Then, the unions would say, "Give us our pay demands, or else." But Dave Prentis has very cleverly been saying to the managers "Get back on the negotiating table, or else." The only industries which seem to really love strikes are that of the baggage handlers, the postmen, and the tube drivers (imho). But what Prentis is saying is very different from what the unions of the '70's said.

I wouldn't support a 6% pay rise. But I support UNISON's efforts. The managers need to get back on the negotiating table, and settle for something like a 4% pay rise. Unions are far, far more pragmatic now. Any talk of the unions trying to get Downing Street to overturn the ban on secondary strikes is guff. The unions know it would be quickly overturned, and so they are asking for far better policies to be implemented, like an amnesty for illiegals.

If that is too contraversial for the government, they have called for flexible working hours and free school meals, as well as for making workplaces greener. Those demands are very reasonable.

But the Right seems to think that the unions of today are inherently masochistic, and like having strikes.  


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#15)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:33:32 PM GMT

Compare inflation rates now and then.

This is nothing whatsoever like the 70s. Pure hyperbole.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#16)

by jdc on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:25:39 PM GMT

Inflation in 1978 averaged 8.3%

Inflation in the last quarter Apr-June 2008 has been at an annualised rate of 8.2%

And the 1978 measure was more honest than CPI.

So I'd say on that front, it's comparable.

I'd rather see action against inflation than inflationary rises.

But as a saver, not a splurger, when Alistair Darling says we need low pay rises to keep interest rates down, I see myself being punished twice.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#17)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:32:07 PM GMT

Inflation in the last quarter Apr-June 2008 has been at an annualised rate of 8.2%

Eh?


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#20)

by jdc on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:05:41 PM GMT

What I said. Monthly inflation for the last three months has averaged about 0.66% It works out as an annualised rate of 8.2%. (try it yourself, put =1.0066^12 into Excel).

It may not carry on like that for the further nine months required to get to an annual rate of 8.2%, indeed it probably won't, but that's how fast prices are rising right now. The same as they did for the year 1978.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#22)

by e10rifles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:30:14 PM GMT

Yes, it is a bit early to tell. Where are the figures from?


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#25)

by jdc on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 05:32:43 PM GMT

They're from the ONS. To the nearest decimal place, as follows.

April: 0.8%
May: 0.6%
June: 0.7%


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#28)

by madasafish on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:28:07 PM GMT

I  remember the 1970s:
A Government whose PM  had a rather shaky grasp of reality (what crisis?)
A Chancellor who was 100% incompetent.
Soaring oil prices.
A bloated Civil Service.
A failed reorganisation of the Unions.
And 30% wage inflation..

No. We are not yet in a similar position: thankfully.

And I hope we never are.

But some things repeat:
A labour Government in power for over a decade which had lost control of the Government finances.@
A world recesssion and hair shirts worn for years after (tax rises to pay for the huge deficits) .
Banks in difficulty through throwing money away on lost causes (Developing countries then , mortgages now).


@ Like the Conservatives in 1991-2.


Personally I think we need Governments to have a statutory duty to keep public finances in some kind of balance over a period.. with no exceptions. That would make hard politicla decisions much easier.


One thing that is new: the total incompetence of most Ministers at their own jobs and their unwillingness to accept responsibility for anything: See Ed Balls and SATS..  Mind you Michael Howard was the same on prison escapes.

So my conclusion: nothing much has changed. No-one has learned anything from the past: just repeating the same errors.

I am underwhelmed by UK politicians of all parties.







Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#29)

by aneurin on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:17:55 PM GMT

Increases of about 5-6% would not affect the economy, in fact it would give people more money to spend or save, so helping.

Spiffing idea! Let's hand out six per cent pay increases all round, then everyone will have "more money to spend or save", and all this extra money will help us pay for the increased cost of oil etc etc, and flow into our banks and building societies so they can relend it to all those beleaguered house buyers. In this way we can magically create resources where none existed before.

Oh good grief.

(Aneurin mutters darkly to himself that it really is about time that Basic Economics was made a compulsory part of the national curriculum, and about Labour PPCs who can't spell simple words such as 'artificial' and 'mismanagement'.)

Everyone understands that the very purpose of a trades union is to stand up for its members' interests and to pursue wage claims with all the weapons at its disposal, but that is no reason to resort to voodoo economics in support of such claims.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#30)

by jdc on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:25:17 PM GMT

Fairly stupid economics.

But honestly, probably less stupid than telling dodgy banks they're welcome to £100bn of money to use in mortgage lending, funded by 'swapping illiquid mortgage backed securities for government bonds' (i.e. government borrowing, dressed up to look like something else).


Trying to control the money supply by controlling the wages of those at the bottom, who have the lowest level of discretionary spending, is really not especially bright.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#32)

by Wiseman on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 10:44:36 AM GMT

I teach econs my friend, so I think I have an idea.  For many years the elite have thought they can con the working class and as for spelling, it was always hurt the right when you get a point right, and in this case the unions are!

Get into you head the working class are more educated!!

John Wiseman


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#43)

by aneurin on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 12:52:22 AM GMT

If you teach economics, which I presume must be a sideline from your professed specialism of information technology, then of course you really should know better. Or at the very least know enough to present some kind of cogent argument to support your assertions.

As to your spelling, that point has been made to you before, hasn't it Mr Wiseman? And isn't a question of education, or class, it's a question of taking the time and trouble to use a spellchecker. Now I perfectly understand that you are trying to establish a reputation in the Party in order that next time round you can get a crack at a better prospect than the distinctly unwinnable Westmorland and Lonsdale. It's just that if you make the effort to ensure that your prose meets at least some minimum standards people will be less inclined to photoshop a clown's hat on your head and more inclined to take you seriously.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#44)

by Wiseman on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 01:46:12 AM GMT

Taken onboard

John


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#31)

by AngryVoter on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 10:27:30 AM GMT

What I find interesting is Brown said there'd be no return to secondary picketing.

He's right, there isn't. It's got a new name...

The complete list, obtained by the Guardian, includes a right to take supportive strike action, scrapping NHS prescription charges, bringing all hospital cleaning back in-house, and a new agreement on public sector pay with the Treasury.

"Supportive Strike Action" to me sounds suspiciously like secondary picketing. Something that is still illegal at present.

With Labour so heavily reliant now the Unions with Party Funding it will certainly be interesting to see what will happen when some of the more unpalatable demands are made...

And how quickly they'll demand they be rammed through.

 

The reason inflation has been so "low" these past 10 years is little more than smoke and mirrors, the previous system was much more honest in it's analysis and included "essentials" such as utility bills, council tax and mortgage payments.

Something the present system doesn't do because it was significantly changed to give people the false impression Labour had fixed inflation.


Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#33)

by jkitleft on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 11:28:40 AM GMT

If the government was in the unions pockets, there wouldn't have been a strike. Indeed, I don't want them to be in their pockets.

But some of these demands are hardly unpalatable. There are 2 million contracted out workers on worse pay than people with the same job in in house work. Indeed, you can often find several cleaners working in the same ward, who are earning drastically differing levels of pay.


And phasing out prescription charges would be a real vote winner. It seems to me odd, that people don't have to pay for an op, but do have to pay for the drugs pre-op and post-op.

On the secondary strike matter, which I don't support repealing, the unions have apparenty said that they want 'supportive picketing' from member of the same company. That doesn't seem totally unreasonable.



[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#34)

by e10rifles on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 11:39:27 AM GMT

At the moment all secondary action is banned by anyone not directly involved in the actual dispute. So people who may be indirectly affected, or colleagues working for the parent company of the contractor, cannot legally strike. The stupidity of this was shown by the Gate Gourmet dispute.

What the unions are asking for is not a legalisation of all secondary picketing but in limited cases where there is a demonstrable link.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#38)

by AngryVoter on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 01:03:02 PM GMT

My concern is that they'll load up their own demands as all family friendly and such then sneak sinister and damaging things through.

Small business owners will be "encouraged" for their employees to become part of a union, or form their own, is one example.

Another is general union membership encouragment.

Another is this "Supportive picketing" which still sounds suspiciously like secondary picketing, even when explained.

Tax deductions for union membership subscriptions [Pushing to make all Unions tax free]

And finally unions to collectively bargain on equality issues.

Each one of those massively increases the unions within the whole of the state and business, something which led us to near-ruin and bankruptcy before.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#39)

by e10rifles on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 02:15:47 PM GMT

Haha.

Rubbish.

Small business owners will be "encouraged" for their employees to become part of a union, or form their own, is one example.

Another is general union membership encouragment.

Explain why either of these things is bad. Even Tory and Liberal MPs pay lip service to the fact that joining a union is A Good Idea, even if they don't agree with us collectively pursuing union policies.



[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#40)

by jkitleft on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 07:50:02 PM GMT

Angry Voter,

It is only when the unions have too much power that they started a spiral of inflation moving upwards.

But Scandanavia has 90% membership rates. And they are the mmost successful societies in the world.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#45)

by e10rifles on Sun Jul 20, 2008 at 03:49:35 PM GMT

If you're referring to the 70s then it is completely inaccurate to state that the unions "started a spiral of inflation moving upwards".

The inflation was begun by oil prices and Callaghan's monetarist response to them. The unions did the only decent thing available once that had already started: to not allow their members to take the brunt of inflation by accepting pay rises below inflation.

 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#35)

by Floating voter on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 12:25:14 PM GMT

"With Labour so heavily reliant now the Unions with Party Funding it will certainly be interesting to see what will happen when some of the more unpalatable demands are made..."

Indeed. I've been very suspicious of unions ever since I was told to join because I could keep my job even if I was incompetent at it. 

 

"The reason inflation has been so "low" these past
10 years is little more than smoke and mirrors, the previous system was much more honest in it's analysis and included "essentials" such as utility bills, council tax and mortgage payments."

I agree. The CPI is a joke. The RPI is better but still far from the truth. We're only buying essentials now - luxuries are out. Butter was about 60p last year in Tescos it's now £1.

Shopping basket inflation is way, way, up. 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#37)

by e10rifles on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 12:53:53 PM GMT

I've been very suspicious of unions ever since I was told to join because I could keep my job even if I was incompetent at it. 

Heh. And you believed them? What a wally.


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#36)

by Floating voter on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 12:39:14 PM GMT

"The complete list, obtained by the Guardian,"

I've just read this article in the Guardian and I am shocked. These union leaders are dictating national policy.

It's none of their d*mned business. They haven't been elected to run the country!


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#41)

by jkitleft on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 07:51:20 PM GMT

What if a right-wing think tank was dictating policy, would you then be against it?


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#42)

by Floating voter on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 11:19:43 PM GMT

" What if a right-wing think tank was dictating policy, would you then be against it?"

Yes.

The only people who should be governing are those we elect to govern us. In addition, the House of Lords should be elected with 1/3 being selected every five years on a 15 year term. 

MPs should have London "digs" like nurses or students hall of residence and the homes allowance and John Lewis list abolished. 

Election funding for all parties should be £1 per elector per election. That gives them £30-40m to play with for each election and only personal donations capped at £5,000 should be allowed. That gets rid of Ashcroft, Levy, that Liberal fella and the unions in one go.

Paid lobbyists should be shot, or at least put against the wall when the revolution comes. 


[ Parent ]

Re: I am proud of public sector workers!! (#46)

by andre on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 10:36:48 AM GMT

Broadly speaking, I agree with union attempts to work for a better deal for public sector workers. 

But as a worker in the private sector, who earns the minimum wage of £5.52 per hour, we have been awarded the derisory 1.8% increase this year.  This in spite of spiralling inflation and increased costs of food and fuel.

I am a member of a union, but what action are the unions taking to ensure a better deal for people like me, for whom the minimum wage becomes a maximum wage?


I am proud of public sector workers!! | 46 comments (46 topical)